Interview with Russian Prime Minister Putin on 29.8.2008
On Friday (29 August), the ARD broadcast an interview between its Russia correspondent Thomas Roth and the Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. The subject was the recent crisis in the Caucasus. After the broadcast, numerous critics spoke out, accusing the broadcaster of having shortened the conversation in a way that distorted the meaning, which amounts to censorship. Below we document the interview published on the Internet verbatim – the passages that fell victim to the ARD cuts are in italics.
Since 2 September, the full interview has also been available to read on www.tagesschau.de.
Transcript
Thomas Roth: Prime Minister, after the escalation in Georgia, the picture in the international public is this – by that I mean politics, but also the press: Russia against the rest of the world. Why did you force your country into this situation?
Vladimir Putin: Who do you think started the war?
Roth: The final trigger was the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali.
Vladimir Putin: Thank you for your answer. That’s right, that’s the truth. We will discuss this topic in more detail later. I would just like to point out that we did not create this situation.
I am convinced that the prestige of any country capable of defending the life and dignity of its citizens, of any country capable of pursuing an independent foreign policy, will increase in the medium or long term. Conversely, the prestige of countries which generally serve the interests of other states, neglecting their own national interests – regardless of how they may explain this – will decrease.
Roth: You still haven’t answered the question why you risked isolating your entire country…
Putin: I thought I answered, but if you need further explanations, I will. Our country, which can defend the dignity and pride of our citizens and fulfill its foreign policy obligations in the context of peacemaking, will not be isolated, regardless of what our partners in Europe and the United States say within the framework of their bloc thinking. The world does not end with Europe and the United States. And on the contrary, I would like to emphasize again: if states neglect their own national interests in order to serve the foreign policy interests of other states, then the authority of these countries – regardless of how they explain it – will gradually decline. In other words, if European states want to serve the foreign policy interests of the United States, then, in my opinion, they will gain nothing from it.
Now let’s talk about our international legal obligations. According to international treaties, Russian peacemakers have a duty to defend the civilian population of South Ossetia. And now let’s think about 1995 (Bosnia). And as you and I know well, the European peacemakers, represented in this case by Dutch forces, did not intervene in the conflict and allowed one side to destroy an entire town. Hundreds were killed and injured. The problem and the tragedy of Srebrenica is very well known in Europe. Did you want us to do the same? To withdraw and allow the Georgian forces to destroy the population living in Tskhinvali?
Roth: Prime Minister, critics say that your real aim in the war was not just to protect the South Ossetian population – from your point of view – but to try to drive the Georgian president out of office in order to prevent Georgia from joining NATO sooner or later. Is that so?
Putin: That is not true, that is a distortion of the facts, that is a lie. If that had been our aim, we might have started the conflict. But, as you yourself said, Georgia did that. Now I would like to remind you of the facts. After the illegitimate recognition of Kosovo, everyone expected us to recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Everyone was waiting for that, and we had a moral right to do so. We were more than reticent. I do not want to comment on that. Yes, what is more, we swallowed it. And what did we get? An escalation of the conflict. Attacks on our peacemakers. Attacks and extermination of the peaceful population of South Ossetia. These are facts that have been mentioned. The French Foreign Minister was in North Ossetia and met with refugees. Eyewitnesses report that the Georgian armed forces ran over women and children with tanks, drove people into their houses and burned them alive. When Georgian soldiers came to Tskhinvali, they threw grenades into the cellars and bunkers where women and children were hiding – as they passed by. How else can you call this other than genocide?
And now to the government in Georgia. These are the people who drove their country into disaster, the Georgian leadership did this with its own actions, torpedoing the statehood of its own country. Such people should not lead any state, no matter how big or small. If they were decent people, they should definitely resign.
Roth: But that is not your decision, but that of the Georgian government.
Putin: Of course, but we also know of precedents that are of a different nature. I would just like to remind you of the American invasion of Iraq and what they did to Saddam Hussein because he had destroyed a few Shiite villages. And here, in the first hours of fighting on South Ossetian territory, ten Ossetian villages were wiped out.
Roth: Mr. Prime Minister, do you think you have the right to invade the territory of a sovereign state, namely Georgia, and carry out bombings there? I myself am sitting here with you purely by chance, as a bomb dropped from one of your planes exploded literally a few meters away from me. [Roth was in the war zone at the beginning of August – ed.] Does that give you the right under international law…
Putin: We acted absolutely within the framework of international law. We viewed the attack on our peacemakers, on our citizens, as an attack on Russia. In the first hours of fighting, the Georgian armed forces killed several dozen of our UN peacekeepers. They surrounded our southern post – there was a southern and a northern one – with tanks and fired directly at it. When our UN peacekeepers tried to get equipment out of a hangar, a strike was carried out with the Grad artillery system. Ten people who went into this hangar were killed on the spot. After that, the Georgian Air Force carried out air strikes in various points in South Ossetia. Not in Tskhinvali, but in the middle of South Ossetia. And we were forced to neutralize the administrative points of the Georgian armed forces that were outside the conflict zone. These were the points from which the artillery strikes and air strikes on Russian UN peacekeepers were coordinated and carried out.
Roth: I said that the civilian population was also bombed. You may not have all the information.
Putin: I may not have all the information. Mistakes can be made during the fighting. The American Air Force has just struck the Taliban in Afghanistan, killing nearly 100 civilians. That is the first possibility. The second, which is more likely, is that the Georgian artillery, air force and radar control points were deliberately placed in the middle of residential areas to minimize the likelihood of air strikes against them. They used the civilian population and you as hostages.
Roth: That is speculation. French Foreign Minister Kouchner has expressed many concerns in recent days, as Minister of the Council Presidency. He has also expressed concern that the next conflict will begin around Ukraine, namely around Crimea, around the city of Sevastopol. Is Crimea the next target, the seat of the Black Sea Fleet?
Putin: You said “the next target”. We had no target here either. That is why it is not correct to talk like that. And, if you will allow me, then you will get a satisfactory answer: Crimea is not a critical territory, there has been no ethnic conflict there, unlike the conflict between South Ossetia and Georgia. And Russia has long since recognized the borders of today’s Ukraine. In principle, we have concluded the border negotiations. All that remains is demarcation issues, which are a technical matter. And such a question smacks of provocation. There are complicated processes within Crimea, Crimean Tatars, Ukrainian population, Russian population, in other words Slavic population. But that is an internal problem of Ukraine. There is a contract for the fleet until 2017.
Roth: Where are we? Is it just an ice age, is it already a cold war, has the arms race already started or are you ruling out everything?
Putin: Russia is not seeking any shifts or tensions. Although that may also happen. We want to maintain good neighbourly, cooperative relations. If you allow me, I will say what I think about that. There was the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact. And there were Soviet forces in the GDR, and we must honestly admit that these were occupation forces that remained in East Germany after the end of the Second World War under the guise of coalition forces. After the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, these occupation forces are gone. The threat from the Soviet Union is gone. But NATO, the American forces in Europe are still there. Why?
In order to maintain order and discipline in our own ranks, to keep all coalition partners within a bloc, we need an external threat. And Iran is not quite suitable for that role. So we want to resurrect an enemy, and that enemy is supposed to be Russia. But in Europe, no one fears us anymore.
Roth: The European Union in Brussels will talk about Russia. Sanctions against Russia will probably be discussed, and they may even be decided upon. Does that worry you in any way, or does it not matter to you, because you say that the Europeans cannot find a common voice anyway?
Putin: If I said we don’t care, we don’t care, I would be lying. Of course, we are following everything very closely. We hope that common sense will prevail and we believe that a non-politicized, but objective assessment of events will be given. We also hope that the actions of the Russian peacemakers will be supported and the actions of the Georgian side, which carried out this criminal action, will be sanctioned.
Roth: Mr Prime Minister, don’t you really have to make a decision? On the one hand, you do not want to forego intensive cooperation with Europe – in my opinion, you cannot do so economically – but on the other hand, you still want to play by your own Russian rules. So on the one hand you have a Europe of common values that you must share, and on the other hand you play by Russian rules. But you can’t have both…
Putin: We do not want to play by any special rules. We want everyone to act according to uniform rules of international law. We do not want these terms to be manipulated, with one region having different rules and another region having different rules. We want uniform rules. Uniform rules that take into account the interests of all participants.
Roth: Are you saying that the EU acts according to different rules depending on the region, which do not correspond to international law?
Putin: Absolutely. How did they recognize Kosovo? They forgot the territorial sovereignty of the states, UN Resolution 1244, which they themselves passed. They were allowed to do that there, but not in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Why?
Roth: That means that Russia is the only one capable of determining the rules of international law. Everyone else manipulates, does what they want? Have I understood you correctly?
Putin: You misunderstood me. Have you recognized Kosovo’s independence? Yes or no?
Roth: Not me, I’m a journalist.
Putin: The western countries. Basically everyone has recognized it. But if you recognize it there, then you also have to recognize the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. There is no difference at all. The difference is made up. There were ethnic tensions there, and there are ethnic tensions here. There were crimes there – practically on both sides – and here you can probably find them. If you dig a little, you can definitely find them. There was a decision there that both peoples could no longer live together in one state, and here they don’t want to either. There is no difference, and everyone really understands that. All this is just talk to cover up illegal actions. This is called the right of the strongest. And Russia cannot accept that.
Mr. Roth, you have lived in Russia for a long time, you speak excellent Russian, almost without an accent. I am not surprised that you understood me. I am very pleased about that, but I would also like my European colleagues to understand me, who will meet on September 1st to discuss this conflict.
Was Resolution 1244 adopted? Yes! It said underlined: territorial sovereignty of Serbia! They threw the resolution in the trash. They forgot everything. They wanted to reinterpret the resolution at first, to interpret it differently, but it didn’t work. They forgot everything. Why? The White House gave the order and everyone is following suit! If European countries continue to pursue such policies, we will have to discuss European affairs with Washington in the future.
Roth: What do you see as Germany’s role in this crisis?
Putin: We have very good relations with Germany, trusting relations, both political and economic. When we spoke with Mr Sarkozy during his visit here, we said that we do not want any territory in Georgia. We will withdraw to the security zone agreed in previous international agreements. But we will not stay there forever. We consider this to be Georgian territory. Our intention is only to ensure security and not to allow troops and military equipment to be secretly concentrated there. And to prevent the possibility of a new conflict from arising. Then we welcome the participation of observers from the EU, the OSCE and, of course, Germany. Once the principles of cooperation have been clarified.
Roth: That means you will withdraw your troops in any case.
Putin: Of course. The first thing that is important for us is to ensure security in the region. The next thing is to help South Ossetia secure its borders. After that, we will have no reason to stay there. And while we do this, we would welcome cooperation with the EU and the OSCE.
Roth: Given the circumstances of the crisis and relations with the USA and Europe, what can you do to help escalate this crisis?
Putin: First of all, I told your CNN colleagues yesterday that this crisis was provoked by our American friends during the primary campaign. This also includes the use of administrative resources in a very regrettable way to ensure a majority for one of the candidates. In this case, the ruling party.
Roth: Do you really believe that? [in Russian]: That is not a fact…
Putin: [in German]: That is not a fact. [continues in Russian] We know that there were many American advisers there. It is very bad to first arm one side of the ethnic conflict and then force it to seek a solution to the ethnic problem by military means. At first glance, this seems easier than conducting negotiations for several years and seeking compromises. But this is a very dangerous path. And the development of events has shown this.
Instructors, trainers in the broadest sense, personnel who demonstrate the use of the supplied technology – where must all of them be? At training facilities and in training centers. And where were these people? In the combat zone! And this suggests that the American leadership knew about the planned action and, what’s more, took part in it. American citizens are not allowed to be in the conflict zone without an order from the top leadership. Only the civilian population, OSCE observers and the blue helmets were allowed to be in the security zone. But we have found traces of American citizens who do not belong to any of these groups. This is the question: why did the US leadership allow its citizens to be there when they had no right to do so? And if they allowed it, then I suspect that it was done intentionally, in order to organize a small, victorious war. And if that goes wrong, to push Russia into the role of the enemy in order to then unite the electorate behind one of the presidential candidates. Of course, that of the ruling party, because only it can have such possibilities. These are my statements and assumptions. It is up to you whether you agree with me or not. But they have the right to exist, because we have found traces of American citizens in the combat zone.
Roth: And one last question that interests me very much. Don’t you think that you are trapped by your own authoritarian system? You get information from your secret services and other sources, but the media are afraid to report anything that does not agree with the government’s line. Is it not the case that the system you have created deprives you of the opportunity to have a broad view of this conflict, of events in Europe and other countries?
Putin: Dear Mr. Roth, you have described our political system as authoritarian. In our discussion today you have also spoken several times about our shared values. What are they? There are some basic values, such as the right to live. In the USA, for example, there is still the death penalty, but in Russia and Europe it does not exist. Does that mean that you want to leave the NATO bloc because there is no complete agreement of values between Europeans and Americans?
Now to the conflict we are talking about today. Don’t you know what has happened in Georgia in recent years? The mysterious death of Prime Minister Zwania, the suppression of the opposition, the physical destruction of opposition protest marches, the holding of elections under a state of emergency and now this criminal action in Ossetia with many deaths. And this is, of course, a democratic country with which a dialogue must be held about admission to NATO or even the EU. And if another country defends its interests, defends the right to life of its citizens – 80 of our people were killed immediately, 2,000 of the civilian population were killed – and we are not allowed to protect our citizens there? And if we do that, then they will take our sausage away? We have a choice: sausage or life. We choose life, Mr Roth.
Now about the other value: freedom of the press. Just look at how these events are being covered in the American press, which is considered a shining example of democracy. And it is similar in the European press. I was in Beijing when the events began. Massive shelling of Tskhinvali, the beginning of the Georgian troops’ advance, there were already many casualties, nobody said a word. Your institution was silent too, all American institutions. As if nothing had happened. Only when the aggressor got a punch in the face, had his teeth knocked out, when he abandoned all his American equipment and ran without hesitation, did everyone remember. About international law, about evil Russia. Then everyone was back on the scene. Why such arbitrariness [in the reporting]?
Now for the “sausage”: economy. We want normal, economic relations with all our partners. We are a very reliable partner, we have never cheated a partner. When we built the pipeline to the Federal Republic of Germany in the early 1960s, our transatlantic partner advised the Germans not to agree to this project. You must know that. At that time, the German leadership made the right decision and the pipeline was built together with the Soviet Union. Today it is one of the most reliable sources of gas for the German economy. Germany receives 40 billion cubic meters every year. And it will continue to do so, I guarantee it. Let’s look at this more globally. What is the structure of our exports to European countries and also to the USA? 80 percent of them are raw materials (oil, gas, petrochemicals, wood, metals). All of these are in great demand by the European and world economy. These are very popular products on the world market. We also have opportunities in high-tech areas, but they are very limited. Moreover, despite legal agreements with the EU, for example on nuclear fuel, we are illegally kept out of the European market. Because of the position of our French friends. But they know about it, we have discussed it with them for a long time. And if someone wants to end these relations, then we cannot do anything about it. But we do not want that. We very much hope that our partners will fulfill their obligations just as we do ours.
So much for our exports. As far as your exports, that is, our imports, are concerned, Russia is a very reliable and large market. I cannot remember the exact figures, but the import of engineering technology from Germany is growing year by year. It is very large these days. And if someone no longer wants to supply us, then we will buy it from somewhere else. But who needs that? I do not understand.
We are pushing for an objective analysis of what is happening, and we hope that common sense and justice will prevail. We are the victims of aggression, and we hope for the support of our European partners.
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